There is nothing to forgive

I abide by the Jesus Christ version of forgiveness. Where a creator who knows all the hearts is slow to anger because God can peer into the hearts and minds of individuals.

So Gos is as the bible says slow to anger. He understand everything about everyone and inside and out. Yet has to deal with the reality of actions and how they affect others. Which means there is a right and wrong and not the seemingly new ager version of "judgment and forgiveness".

I believe it was Jesus who taught that we should forgive because God prefers a sacrifice of mercy than a sacrifice of animals. Our way of "getting even" is sacrificed for the sake of the individual who did us wrong. Forgiveness and mercy take the role of anger and action. Then from there we have to make a step towards admonishing the individual to repent and change their ways rather than seeking retribution.

It only really works if the person repents of their sin at the end of the day. If they don't then God exacts an ultimate form of price.

Meaning, if someone has done you wrong, then you should forgive the person as a way of showing God that you are not....in a sense...full of hate with your own brother or sister. You are their keeper so you should do whats right and put away your anger and instead seek to exemplify your love by trying to set them on a better path that aligns with that of God.

If they refuse then they are already aware that someday they will be judged by an authority none and can say is unjust. Since that authority controls the ultimate meaning of life. That's why death in the bible (the first death of the body) is not seen as that much of a big deal. .Its the second death that really should be on everyone's mind. (the death of the soul where you cease to exist and no one will at some point remember you anymore)

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So for me it is not so much acceptance and not being judgmental. As it is forgiving for the sake of God and your fellow brother and sister of which you are his or her keeper. It's about putting away your hate and putting forth your admonishment that they "do no more sin". So that from a point of love for your brother or sister, God does not punish them.

A sort of tightly knit family of extended families. Where God sets the rules that everyone lives by as it is his creation and we are all living within the confines of it. If you don't correct your neighbor, then they get voted out of creation.

We are obviously asked to suspend our judgment in the bible beyond that capacity. As we don't know the hearts and minds of others except for the destined 144,000 saints who will review Gods judgments and certify that they are indeed true and just for the rest of creation.

Since God is all knowing and all aware, He takes that job of judgment onto Himself. Every knook and cranny is for Him to know and judge in accordance to His limitless wisdom.

We as limited beings with limited insight are not supposed to do the judging in his stead. Only what we have been directed to do. (admonish, correct, ask for repentance etc.).

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Anyway, that's my view points Lissa.

For me, one of the toughest hurdles in my spiritual path was letting go of all the "restrictions" placed on us based on biblical teachings. I had always thought the good old "King James" version was the one and only book and I took every word literally.
As I got older, it just didn't make any sense to me that a loving God would give us free will and then ZAP us when we broke the rules. Guilt is a pitiful emotion and one that is used for manipulation pure and simple.
Upon learning that almost every major religion had their own bible and their versions were very smiliar, if not identical, to the one I used (just insert Mohammad or whatever master in place of Jesus); I started to view things a bit differently. It didn't make any sense that one religion could be the only one. Once you question the basic teachings, then all bets are off.
There really is no right or wrong, just the way you interpret things. Now, of course, we know that taking another life is violent and unacceptable yet we make exceptions for wars that are started many times in the name of God. Isn't it ironic?
Love is simply all there is. Fear is only the lack of love and guilt runs right along with fear. You feel guility of something, then fearful you won't be accepted or loved if you don't right the wrong that started the guilt in the first place. It's a viscous cycle that will repeat into infinity - if you don't just stop and think.
Forgiveness is a by-product of judging. Acceptance without judgment is loving unconditionally and that is key. If we just love - no strings - no judgments then there is no need to forgive.
Let go of all the rules that you follow out of fear. The truth shall set you free and you will be free to love unconditionally.
This is my opinion and I have been so much happier and joyful since I began living my life with this
mantra.
On a side note, and not that it matters, but I do believe that Jesus walked this earth and is an Ascended Master, I just believe his teachings were simple and man has managed to screw His message up royally for control and monetary gain.

Quote Fore:   We are obviously asked to suspend our judgment in the bible beyond that capacity. As we don't know the hearts and minds of others except for the destined 144,000 saints who will review Gods judgments and certify that they are indeed true and just for the rest of creation.

Well thats exactly my point, we are asked to suspend judgement, so if we can not judge someone because we do not know their hearts, how do we know they need forgiving?  It is impossible to forgive without having first judged someone to be in need of forgiveness. And we are told/asked not to judge, so therefore we can not forgive, we just need to accept. 

This is the next part of our ascension I believe, if one will stop for a moment and really take in the enormity of this revelation, it will change the entire way we deal with others.  If I am not judging my partner in anyway, then he can not hurt me, my ego has no fire to flame, my ego's sense of fairness is not enraged, etc etc etc... peace and harmony.! 

 

I have been testing this in the last 24 hrs and the results are instant!!  If he says something that sets off my ego, I have stopped, remembered this new information, and like magic there is no reaction, no ego, no hurt feelings, I have just welled up inside with love. It is the most amazing revelation I have ever had.

I completely agree with you, Lissa. I guess more to my point, I really don't believe in the suspension of judgment; nor do I believe God or saints will review any judgments. I think most of that was written by men, again for guilt and fear purposes only.
So, for me, I send love to all who annoy, hurt or otherwise aggravate me and it works just like you said!
Like magic.
The funniest thing is that people cannot figure out for the life of themselves why you don't react with some sort of negative emotion. Maybe they will catch on and this will spread. Of course!!

Check out Marks Corner - he speaks to Jesus in the lastest post which relates to what you are saying in terms of his message being screwed up, fear etc etc, and even talks to JFK!
Lissa, I think you are on to a big one here when it comes to judgement.
Love it

@ Lissa

The obvious problem is correcting misbehavior which is a fundamental aspect in Christian teachings. People don't get ignored for their misbehavior but are supposed to admonish.

But lets bring it down to earth a bit more. You say your having a hard time with your partner because he does or says things which cause you some form of discomfort. What most Christians don't seem to realize is that alot of what the bible teaches works upon the heart of a person. It is not enough to simply *mentally* forgive someone as the fire still broils below the surface.

You say you are suspending judgment. But is it for his sake or yours? [If I get too touchy make sure to tell me so I don't further the issue, okay?]

Pause for a moment when he says something to you which angers or perturbs you. And then when you suspend your judgement of him in the way you describe search your heart inside and out to see if it is fully satisfied with what you have done.

If your system is working then your heart should continue to be still and not ache in any way. If it doesn't then you should feel a nagging impulse that you will try to suppress.

Forgiveness (for me) isn't so much a free pass as being willing to put the issue to rest and trying to understand the others person and hoping they will change for the better. You have probably seen it in your years. If someone does not recieve help, eventually they will continue to degrade without some form of correction.

In the Old Testament Christian point of view, this form of correction is allowed even to the point of stoning someone to death or separating them from the rest of society. The reason is to try to cut off a cancerous arm so that the rest of the body does not become infected. Bad influence and sinful attitudes are treated as an infection which has to be purged to keep it from infecting large portions of the population.

That changed a bit in the New Testament where forgiveness is exemplified as a solution rather than stoning as a solution. Same principle different method.

There is nothing to assure that a person will change because they exercise their freewill and in that God allows them to run their course (whatever that may be) to it's fulfillment.

Your partner probably does something which is (I am guessing) not Sin related per say. I am going to guess he has a hard way of speaking or something like that. So when he does something wrong, you should correct him and help him to understand. Otherwise he may get worse in his attitude when he meets little or no resistance to an abrasive behavior.

Forgiving him for the sake of a loving resolution is far better than blowing your top and getting angry or even. When you get even or angry you are cutting off the path towards some successful resolution of a situation.

When you suspend that retribution (as Jesus did with the prostitute) there is an open door invitation to two things:

1) You can seek to help them only if they want it.

Some people are often just waiting for someone to help them in some way. There are people who do bad things which are not necessarily bad people. The effort is to pull them back from the brink if this is what they want.

Jesus has said that everyone who seeks, will find.

2) You can bring out that love inside you and use it instead of the anger.

Rather than pick up a boulder and smash it over your partner when he gets out of line. It's better to try to understand what is going on inside him and help him find out how you feel when he does something. If his heart is willing, and he loves you, then he will find some way to change his inner attitudes for the sake of his love for you.

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So put yourself in that position. Will you hurl that stone at his head in anger or will you throw away for the love of his being and a desire to see you both prosper and grow together?

Once you throw the stone there is sometimes no turning back. Effectively you'd be slowly cutting any possible reconciliation.

What I believe does not necessarily entail turning a blind eye to a situation. But hoping for their best.

Of course it is just my opinion and I won't impose in any way. It's just what I believe. Different people choose different paths and it leads to different conclusions. I have my own problems that I wrestle with so I don't pretend that I am perfect in my own beliefs or implementations of them. (as you will personally know)

When you suspend that retribution (as Jesus did with the prostitute) there is an open door invitation to two things:

-fore999

P.S. He asked the people who wanted to stone the prostitute, those that have no sin, to cast the first stone at her.

Had they themselves been stoned upon their first sin, they would not be alive to stone her on that day. He who could have stoned her rightfully, did something which changed the woman. He forgave her and admonished her not to continue in her sinful ways.

I do see what your saying with refering to the bible, unfortunately for me the bible has been so watered down, so manipulated and so lost in translation that it is for me nothing more than a great collection of semi accurate tales of a period in history. The real teachings of our past masters have well and truly been lost to us because they free us, which is definately not what the hirearchy want. 
 
If you are saying that to you forgiveness is a way of putting a situation to rest in the hopes that they will be able to change, you are halfway there because that is an aspect of acceptance, however there is still an element of judgement there. That is that you hope they will be able to change. Change to what, based on the spiritual principals we are now learning, the person is already perfect exactly as they are so why do they need to change?  And how do you know that its not their fault, that somehow your behaviour is what is setting off theirs?  You dont, because "we do not know the hearts of all men"  so even if you put it in a way that is putting it to rest, you have still judged their behaviour to be wrong.
 
The argument of needing to rid ourselves of cancerous behaviour is a bigger issue that takes us then to the law of attraction and the law of co-creation.  If you are not judging and are accepting of others behaviours and your energy is being given out in a way that vibrates acceptance and love, do you not then, based on the law of attraction, create more of that acceptance and love in the immediate reality around you?  Yes.  On the other hand, deciding or judging someones behaviour to be wrong or offensive, is giving out that exact same kind of vibration because that is the thought, and so based on the law of attraction, you have just created more offensive and wrong behaviour around your immediate reality. 
 
So, although the original desire to rid society of undesireable behaviours was a noble one, this very desire has in fact created more of it because it was the undesireable behaviours we focused on.  To rid ourselves of these socially diseasing energies we need to focus on the opposite of them, acceptance, perfection, love.  When we look at someone who is doing something bad and simply accept that that is where they are and they are perfect even in their actions no matter how horrid, we actually begin to change the vibration we send out and begin to help to erradicate the very thing we dont want.
 
So again, any form of forgiveness creates exactly the kind of reality we dont want because we have to focus on what it is we are forgiving, which in turn gives it thought, which in turn creates it.
 
Hope I didnt ramble too much then lol

That is that you hope they will be able to change. Change to what, based on the spiritual principals we are now learning, the person is already perfect exactly as they are so why do they need to change?

-lissa

That is where I depart with the new ager form of thought. I don't assume that we are already perfect. Quite the opposite as taught by God itself.

The idea that we are perfect is pretty easy for me to dismiss. Simply put, if we are perfect and self sustaining, then we would not be in the crisis we currently face.

That is basically how I disagree with that fundamental premise. It's a big one too.

And how do you know that its not their fault, that somehow your behaviour is what is setting off theirs?  You dont, because "we do not know the hearts of all men"  so even if you put it in a way that is putting it to rest, you have still judged their behaviour to be wrong.

-lissa

That is where it is super important to set aside the stones and put our collective minds and hearts together in an effort to work our way through the problems.

That doesn't mean that it will be fixed, but a loving person tries their best nonetheless.

As you can imagine, in my post, I am not accounting for all variables as that would be quite the post to put together. I am mostly putting forth some basic principles to manage a condition of our imperfection when we encounter it in our collective world and life.
 

The argument of needing to rid ourselves of cancerous behaviour is a bigger issue that takes us then to the law of attraction and the law of co-creation.  If you are not judging and are accepting of others behaviours and your energy is being given out in a way that vibrates acceptance and love, do you not then, based on the law of attraction, create more of that acceptance and love in the immediate reality around you?  Yes.  On the other hand, deciding or judging someones behaviour to be wrong or offensive, is giving out that exact same kind of vibration because that is the thought, and so based on the law of attraction, you have just created more offensive and wrong behaviour around your immediate reality.

-lissa

This is another principle that I don't subscibe to. The law of attraction.

I had quite a bit of consternation with another member on my personal thread about this. I take the position that no such "law of attraction" exists. So again some fundamental differences exists between our points of view.

Bad things happen to good people. Our loved ones die on ditches and roads at the hands of mentally ill people. And plenty of walking turds in the world get plenty of good luck in their life.

There appears to be no significant trend for me to see a "law of attraction" existing in our reality.
 

So, although the original desire to rid society of undesireable behaviours was a noble one, this very desire has in fact created more of it because it was the undesireable behaviours we focused on.  To rid ourselves of these socially diseasing energies we need to focus on the opposite of them, acceptance, perfection, love.  When we look at someone who is doing something bad and simply accept that that is where they are and they are perfect even in their actions no matter how horrid, we actually begin to change the vibration we send out and begin to help to erradicate the very thing we dont want.

-lissa

I half agree with you. The people who choose what are undesirable behaviors tend to make human choices. Human beings are flawed by their current condition. So it is expectant that our choices and collective decision will result in the world we now live in.

God laid out a few lines of commandments to give us really basic tennants by which to live. The majority of our current and old age laws were created by individuals who decided on their own what should and should not be allowed. Given all their biases, imperfect wisdom/knowledge, and inherent vices; it is no surprise that the world has gone through many periods of persecution.

Persecution of Man against Man.

Eveything in our current world...from First world (USA) to Fouth world (tribes?) shows us all that the human condition is not the best. We are not the most level nor the most fair.

That is why God put aside judgement for Himself and only gave basic guidelines that we should look out for and try to correct. The rest is up to Him. If we make the decision, it will almost inevitibly come out flawed in some measure.

Our world reflect this, and this reality goes in direct contradiction to new age teachings that Man is self sustaining or "perfect". You could say we are out of our element. (A sly sort of joke on my part!)
 

So again, any form of forgiveness creates exactly the kind of reality we dont want because we have to focus on what it is we are forgiving, which in turn gives it thought, which in turn creates it.
 
Hope I didnt ramble too much then lol

-lissa

Hey, I am not sure I am rambling myself. Keep up the chat I love it when ideas get shared. Imagine all the thoughts we get to inspire in the readers who comb through out thoughts.

Penny for your thoughts !

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I would like to say something. Back when I was still with the woman who taught me most of what I know today, she said, that everything that is inside of us all ultimately gets reflected into the world.

Meaning, our nature and our ways, is proof of our condition. If we live in a messed up world full of curruption and greed and life and happiness. Then it is all part of our innermost selves.

As a member on our forum once said, everything starts with a single thought. Every endeavor, every idea, every motivation, ect.

There is always a *first impulse* somewhere from the tiniest fragment imaginable deep inside all of us. If you have the tiniest faith in your fellow whom your having problems with. Then the world of the future can change drastically depending on how you deal with it. To some degree, we are all connected to some extent.

Our decisions ultimately add up.

If you believe in evolution then you are alive today thanks to thousands and millions of choices made by distant ancestors that gave ride to human kind.

If you are a believer in creationism, then you are the product of just a few words spoken before creation became a reality. "Let there be light"

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@ lissa

Hows that for rambling! hehe

LOL nice rambling!   Btw, I hate to point this out, (hehe not really) but um your last bit there, about the woman who taught you, um she just taught you the law of attraction LOL
 

• "she said, that everything that is inside of us all ultimately gets reflected into the world. Meaning, our nature and our ways, is proof of our condition. If we live in a messed up world full of curruption and greed and life and happiness. Then it is all part of our innermost selves."

 

• "As a member on our forum once said, everything starts with a single thought. Every endeavor, every idea, every motivation, ect.   There is always a *first impulse* somewhere from the tiniest fragment imaginable deep inside all of us. If you have the tiniest faith in your fellow whom your having problems with. Then the world of the future can change drastically depending on how you deal with it. To some degree, we are all connected to some extent."

 
 
That is the law of attraction, somewhat explained a little more philosophically and internally but it is the law of attraction none the less, everything starts with a thought, everything we create comes from within. It is also what is meant by the phrase "as above, so below"  " as in thought, so in reality"  it also is the saying "you reap what you sow", "you get back what you give"  It is put in a beautiful a slightly different way but it is the law of attraction and co-creation.
 
I understand what you mean about bad things happening to good people also, but here is the fundamental argument on that theory,  how do you know what their thoughts are?  The law of attraction all starts from within, from a feeling first, then a thought, then words, then action then creation.   What if all they do all day is worry about getting mugged?  They may be beautiful people to associate with, be hard working, honest and a pillar of the community, but what is going on in their private thoughts? We dont know do we? No, because we do not know the hearts of men.  
 
Many many times over and over again, a persons fear is exactly what they end up manifesting, now they havent verbalised their fears, and they certainly in most cases do not openly admit to those around them that they have fears, but they give alot of thought to their fears day in and day out... and hey presto... the universe delivers.
 
 So I guess I need to ask also,  if you believe what she told you?  If so, then we would have to realise that you do believe in the law of attraction, she just never gave you its name. hehehe

That is the law of attraction, somewhat explained a little more philosophically and internally but it is the law of attraction none the less, everything starts with a thought, everything we create comes from within. It is also what is meant by the phrase "as above, so below"  " as in thought, so in reality"  it also is the saying "you reap what you sow", "you get back what you give"  It is put in a beautiful a slightly different way but it is the law of attraction and co-creation.

-lissa

If you put it that way then I guess yes.

Except her version is a bit different in some of the dynamics. But basically you captured the heart of it.

Except unlike that book "The Secret" what we imagine is not what we get. There is alot between heaven and earth and it affects how things come out ultimately. I am being vague because I haven't yet brought people up to speed on all of my experiences so I don't want to lose people in what I mean just yet.
 

I understand what you mean about bad things happening to good people also, but here is the fundamental argument on that theory,  how do you know what their thoughts are?

-lissa

Your talking to a pretty unique individual considering the standard. I have gotten to peer (to different degrees at different ages) into people all of my life.

It got to the point that with one glance, I could get the personality and makeup of the individual just by looking at their psychic composition. Before then I would have to request the info from my group. And they would usually give me a compiled sensation that tells you alot about how a person is set up internally.

There is a perception that comes with the use of psychic abilities that allows an individual to gather lots of information from an individual. Both about their present and their "near" future. There are limits based on your capacity to percieve certain kinds of info, but you can even set it up to get updates about their condition and what emotions they are feeling. Including flagging specific kinds of near-time events if you crafty enough.

I personally used my "higher mind" to process and filter the information and to target information that was specifically relevant to my interest so that my "lower mind" didn't have to wade through alot of it. Most people unconciously activate this system to a relatively low level and they refer to it as a "knowing" of sorts.

There are alot of pecularities in the process of perception. But you do eventually learn that there are lot of misconceptions along with unseen complexity and lots of instigators that inhabit our world on an unseen level of reality.

You'd be surprised how often some criminals are getting manipulated and/or managed unconsciously by unseen entities. Or how lots of people are vulnerable to external influences that they cannot directly percieve as affecting their mentality.

Any definitive law of attraction (think positive and positive things will come your way) is hard to find because of the constant interference from so many factors. So in that sense I don't think the law of attraction actually works as people think it should.

The law of attraction all starts from within, from a feeling first, then a thought, then words, then action then creation.   What if all they do all day is worry about getting mugged?

-lissa

Not really much difference in my opinion. I could worry about being mugged and nothing would happen.

But I do know there are spiritual entities who mess around and create problems and they do indeed work together in a concerted effort. Only if you become a target do you really have to worry.

==========================

For example, one day, one spiritual entity I knew who was around nearby was calling to me. As per my guardians instructions I was told to ignore that entity. But the entity kept calling to me to come see something.

So I did what was prudent and scanned the entity psychically from where I was sitting to determine what it's composition was. (no different really than scanning a regular living human being) The info came back as an entity consistent with malevolent signature. I forget if it was a demon or a phantom. Probably a phantom.

The entity kept calling and asking me to come, it wanted to show me something. This is the middle of the afternoon by the way.

So finally the entity pestered me enough that I decided to see what it wants knowing full well that it's psychic profile is of a malevolent type. I telepathically signal back roughtly "what do you want?".

It tells me to come outside. It wants to show me something interesting. I indulge it's retarded behavior and go outside onto my porch. It tells me to come out further and I can tell it is up to no good. I tell the guardian to be on the lookout for any nefarious activity.

The entity beckons me to stand at a certain place and tells me to "stop there". Then (believe it or not) it tell me look to your left. I look and see nothing interesting to my left. It tells me look further down the street. So I do.

I get bored after waiting thirty seconds and I notice the malevolent entity is speaking to someone and I start pondering why it is trying to immitate the mental voice of a female. The entity is busy talking and I notice it is talking to someone in the direction it is asking me to stare at.

The guardian indicates she is busy on something. (probably getting someone to correct the upcoming situation before it happens is my guess)

I turn around and start to leave back into my home and the entity convinces me to stay that it had something "wonderful" (something like that) to show me. So I am bored and ready to go back to ignoring this entity who is obviously up to no good.

It says sharply "look", I can tell the guardian seems distracted herself as if she was doing something right that moment. The malevolent phantom/demon (I don't remember what it was at the moment) indicates to keep looking towards the left. Suddenly I notice the envionrment doesn't feel right like someone is building a charge of influence somewhere in the general area.

To my left, I suddenly see a man crossing the street and for no apparent reason he stops and bends down in the middle of one of the lanes. One of the cars screeches to a halt and barely misses him. The malevolent entity changes it's expression to "joy" indicating it is happy I almost witnessed somoene getitng run over.

I am, on the other hand, disturbed that I almost watched somoene get plastered and that the bastard entity who was calling to me was asking me to watch this. That the entity had obviously been working with some other entities down the road to make me see something gruesome.

I was kicking myself all the way back inside as I felt bad and stupid for listening to the beckoning of one of those bastards. A long string of curse words followed mentally at the entity. All it did in return is express it's malice.

===========================

Moral of the story, we don't decide what happens to us in reality. We only decide what we want to do the the world not what the world wants to do to us. We simply are just along for the ride. And reality is far more complicated than any "law of attraction" can account for, as far as I am concerned.

They may be beautiful people to associate with, be hard working, honest and a pillar of the community, but what is going on in their private thoughts? We dont know do we? No, because we do not know the hearts of men. 

-lissa

Not to the degree that God does. But when you become really psychic it is not hard to figure out what they were thinking during an incident.

The fabric of conciousness is not exactly linear with our universe. That is why pre-cognition exists.
 

Many many times over and over again, a persons fear is exactly what they end up manifesting, now they havent verbalised their fears, and they certainly in most cases do not openly admit to those around them that they have fears, but they give alot of thought to their fears day in and day out... and hey presto... the universe delivers.
 
 So I guess I need to ask also,  if you believe what she told you?  If so, then we would have to realise that you do believe in the law of attraction, she just never gave you its name. hehehe

-lissa

Actually, again I am the oddball sheep in this yarn.

I noticed a long time ago that there are supernatural "administrators" of sorts. Call them "the heavenly powers that be".

Everything is pretty much a smooth course and depending on how psychically gifted you are, you can know up to a handful of years what will happen next in your personal life.

If you ask one of these higher ups [very nicely!] to consider your situation and you present good points they are liable to change the course of events for your personal life. I usually send the guardian as my errand girl/guy/it.

Sometimes I get some concessions, alot of times not. When they do agree then the future changes significantly for the better. When they don't it keeps rolling on to it's completion as predicted. Thats been the case for my life.

I don't think I believe in this attractive force. I only agree that what you do is what ultimately becomes a part of the world around you. But there are others living in this world and they too have decisions to make which affect you.

Sometimes we may take super happy pills and think the very best but the situation still comes out the same.

I actually ran a test using my psychic ability of precognition just 2 years ago. I figured if I read into the future and then forcibly believed something completely different. Would my thoughts affect the futures outcome?

The result was that the future came out exactly as my psychic abilities registered the situation. Reguardless of what I wanted or desired. The test was to see whether emotions and desires had any significant impact without action.

So while I agree that we create our world through our decisions. What we aspire and think does not really greatly affect what we recieve. It's like a pinball game where you are never sure you can get a straight shot.

The bible speaks of you reap what you sow. In that sense it speaks of rewards that may or may not be found in life. It also might speak to the fact that if you create terrible situations, then terrible situations are what you will live with as it is your personal will manifested. Not necessarily what you get on the recieving end of life.

If our president decided to nuke russa and russia decided to nuke us, then the world will just have to live with it. Regardless of whether we think positively or not. I guess what I am saying is that nothing is sure. The law of attraction purports to be some sort of fulcrum of what bounty you recieve in life.

But the truth (as I see it) is that the rest of the world is not in synch with your own propagated desire. Some think of peace, some think of war. Those who think of peace do not necessarily negate the war.

I agree we co-create. I disagree that we all agree on what is to be co-created. For that reason alone, the returns are a game of rolling the dice rather than anything based on your thoughts or feelings. There are other feelings and thoughts competing in the world and they all have access to many decisions.

Some of those decisions to be made may result in a deal breaker situation for you or your life.

Right now tons of people are being evicted into snowy whether. The odds are that at least some are very positive of their chances of not being evicted from a foreclosed property. Such is life.

Therefore I see the law of attraction as a sort of mystical fulcrum which really does not exist under scrutiny. That our actions define our world is not necessarily a form of attraction in my opinion. It is more of a law of propagation. Who knows what sharp edges the ripples of our actions might encounter in the world.

By the time the wave gets back to us it may be a tsunami or it may be already cancelled out by other peoples propagating decisions.

That lays closer to the heart of what she meant.
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Pit it this way,

Every happy gopher has his good and bad days. It all depends on whether that gardner wants to use dynamite, a water hose, or will live with his field full of pre-dug holes.

Wow, that was An interesting thoughtful read! Thanks Fore! I had "one of them days" today at work and was trying to figure out if I just need to be sick tomorrow and have a day Alone<rare>. It kinda felt like something was picking on me today, and got the impression something was just messing with me because I 'm an easy target, once I realized that an external force was working on me, I accepted it and it just stopped bothering me so much. though I'm really leaning toward a sickday tomorrow.....

Lisa,

You are correct, but I think you're taking too negative of a view on forgiveness.  There can be no unconditional love without forgiveness.  People are going to wrong you, they are going to do bad things around you and to you.  If you can't forgive them unconditionally, how can you love them unconditionally?  It's a subtle line, as you point out.  Forgiveness does not presume judgment though.  You're right that if you unconditionally love that person, then they can not do anything to you that you would have to forgive them for, but it would be impossible for you to unconditionally love that person if you couldn't forgive them when they did something bad to you.  Really, perfect love requires forgiveness, and vice-verse.  The ideas don't fight each other, they require each other to fully express themselves.

Make sense?  Confusing, yes.

If you can attain perfect love for every human on this planet, then yes, you would not need the concept of forgiveness.  Let us know how that works out for you.  :)

cute :)))

Glad to have you back, agreatersense!

Thank you, Sun.  I didn't think I'd be remembered.  I never really leave anything though.  Sometimes it's just hard to tell if I'm there. :)

Sorry Ive been absent, internet is off and Im waiting to pay the bill, so just a quick comment today from the internet cafe.
You still have to Judge someone in order to forgive them.  If you dont judge then there is nothing to forgive, it just is.  The very fact that you are forgiving someone means you have to have made a decsion on the fact that their actions were wrong to begin with. If there is no right or wrong, if everything just is, then there simply can not be any forgiveness, because you couldnt make a judgement on what they did being wrong because it wouldnt be wrong, it just is.  So if it just is, then what did they do wrong, nothing, so why do they need forgiving? they dont.

You need to think about the actual steps involved to get to forgiveness... and step one is being offended or hurt by someone, step two is deciding that what they did was wrong, this is judgement, step three is then deciding that you have the right to judge them and decide that what they did was wrong, this is ego, and step four is the forgiveness part.  Break it down and you will see judgement all over it.

bee back in a few days
love and light

I hope your economic hardship is under control Lissa.

I hope your doing alot better in the near future.

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I believe there is right and wrong.

I was not aware that anyone considered any other alternative a viable option.

Well, I disagree with that logic Lisa, or I guess rather the conclusion that judgment is bad in this case.  Whatever the situation, you aren't above judging actions.  And I think you are forgetting about the other side of the equation, the person who did the wrong in the first place.  They have already judged themselves by wronging you, especially if they did it willingly.  They need to receive forgiveness as much as you will need to give it, and they need to know you mean it.  If you just rationalize it out, they aren't going to believe you much, and then there is no love or forgiveness.

I think I agree with some aspects of what you're saying though.  God doesn't need to forgive us because He has perfect love for everyone.  It's our own judgment against ourselves that separates us from him. 

But I think you're missing a key point to this whole love thing, Lisa.  Forgiving someone is not bad, and if you don't learn to forgive, you will never get the love right.  Just think what the world would be like if more people forgave instead of taking offense.  Both situations end up with some kind of judgment, but its how we deal with it that counts.  We can react to ours and others judgments with anger or love.  React with anger, and you have offense and hurt.  React with love, and you have forgiveness. 

That's the way I see it working, and the way I would like to continue to grow.  I get it wrong a lot too.

I too wish you well with whatever hardship you are under. I hope whatever solutions you are coming up with work out for you.